The biggest news of the signing day was Vanderbilt’s Tyler Beede turning down an offer from the Toronto Blue Jays for over two million dollars to attend Nashville. Some people consider the move by Beede to attend Vanderbilt as the biggest recruit heading to campus.
I have been a member of the group that says if a team offers you “life-changing” money that you have to accept it as many things that could potentially happen to you in college. The biggest risk is injury especially to a pitcher. Lets take Matt Purke who was offered over six million dollars from the Texas Rangers and with MLB running the franchise the deal never got done. Two years later, Purke was selected by the Washington Nationals with the 93rd overall pick. He ended up signing with the Nats for about four million over four years.
So Purke decided to go to college, got injured during his sophomore season, and ended up getting two million dollars less then he would have gotten out of high school.
Another interesting case is Gerrit Cole who was the 28th overall selection in the 2008 MLB Draft by the New York Yankees. He ended up refusing to negotiate with the Yankees set on attending UCLA. Cole had an excellent career with the Bruins which led to him being the 1st overall pick in the 2011 MLB Draft. He signed for an eight million dollar signing bonus with the Pirates. Was it really worth spending two years in college for an extra four million?
A player that I look at who actually has hurt himself by going to college is Miami (FL) lefthander Eric Erickson who was a 43rd round selection in the 2006 MLB Draft by the New York Yankees. He decided to head to college where he had a great freshman season in 2007 going 10-4 with a 2.50 ERA and 63 strikeouts in 90 innings. His sophomore season in 2008 saw him drop off somewhat to a 9-1 record and a 4.15 ERA. He ended up suffering an injury in fall practice in 2008 making him miss the 2009 season with “Tommy-John” surgery. He returned in 2010 to the diamond 4-1 record and a 2.52 ERA in ten starts missing his last few of the years as his arm flared up. He ended up having another “Tommy-John” surgery after the season. He did not attend Miami in 2011 and will be back in the mix in 2012 for his sixth year of eligibility.
These were just a few examples of players which have improved or lowered their stock in college. So did Beede make a good decision going to Vanderbilt? or will he regret it? Only time will tell…What do you think he should have done?
33 comments
Was going to college for two years really worth the extra 4 million dollars? I hope that’s a joke.
He just got paid 2 million dollars a year to pay college baseball, which he wanted to do. So yes, it was worth it.
Yes, but if he got hurt he got nothing. In today’s economics of baseball, $4 Million is really nothing.
If Cole had gotten to the Majors at 20 or 21 years old then he would have been able to get to free agency earlier and have more years at the “elite” level.
If it’s simple as you claim, Brian, why are these high drafts turning down low millions for college?
Please see my post, immediately below, from 5 days ago. Again, there are good reasons to turn down a low offer — or any offer from a team that doesn’t give the prospect his best chance of success.
Maybe Gerrit Cole would have gotten to the Majors at 21 if he’d signed out of high school. Or, maybe he’d have blown his arm in the minors and never gotten to The Show at all.
With all the shots you’ve taken at college coaches in this exchange, you DO realize that as many or more blow out their arms in the minor leagues, don’t you?
As Anon says, UCLA was a great deal for Gerrit Cole.
If it’s simple as you claim, Brian, why are these high drafts turning down low millions for college?
Please see my post, immediately below, from 5 days ago. Again, there are good reasons to turn down a low offer — or any offer from a team that doesn’t give the prospect his best chance of success.
Maybe Gerrit Cole would have gotten to the Majors at 21 if he’d signed out of high school. Or, maybe he’d have blown his arm in the minors and never gotten to The Show at all.
With all the shots you’ve taken at college coaches in this exchange, you DO realize that as many or more blow out their arms in the minor leagues, don’t you?
As Anon says, UCLA was a great deal for Gerrit Cole.
Yes, but if he got hurt he got nothing. In today’s economics of baseball, $4 Million is really nothing.
Not sure those are the best examples, Bri. As I understand it, Purke was to get a little over $4M and then MLB shut it down and capped the offer at either $1.7M or $2M. Purke turned it down. So he benefited by going the college route (you can only turn down what is actually offered, not what is offered without authorization).
And, in any respect, it’s the guys who aren’t big names out of college that are the risk scenario, rather than the guys who still go at the top of the draft.
Additionally, Vanderbilt has a recent history of having graduates get fast tracked to the majors; each of Jensen Lewis, Jeremy Sowers, David Price and Mike Minor made it to the bigs before the end of their second season (not 100% on Lewis, who might have been in his third). Sonny Gray is starting out in AA, indicating that he’ll be the same. Although the fast tracking of elite talent is not unique to Vanderbilt, at least part of that is due to having the best pitching coach in the country, in Derek Johnson. Being able to work over a consistent three year period with the same coach and have that coach be the consensus “best in the game” has real value.
In other words, actual statistical support has to be given if anyone wants me to believe that you’re quicker to the majors as a pitcher if you go pro after high school than after your junior year of college. You don’t see that many 19 year old rookies throwing.
College pitchers are more advanced then a high schooler so they will get to the league faster. But you see a few 20-21 year olds making it to the league while the college kids are just getting drafted. This also gives a high schooler more “time” during their prime for maximum dollars with MLB teams.
The Purke article I read was in the Washington Post saying he turned down 6 million but of course it didn’t bring up the MLB mess with the Rangers.
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Jack Armstrong turned down 1 million out of high school from the Rangers and ended up getting 750k from the Houston Astros. So his bonus actually went down.
Let’s not talk apples and oranges, here. There’s an oceanic void between the MLB possibilities for top-25 picks vs those for 4th or 5th rounders — let alone 40th rounders.
A guy drafted in the middle of the 1st round can logically look beyond the “this-opportunity-only-comes-once” argument which is the scouts’ primary negotiating tool.
A first-round guy has a reasonable chance to, not only put on an MLB uniform, but to stick for some years. The draft bonus is the most-reliable sign of the MLB team’s commitment to that player’s development. If the team doesn’t offer — or doesn’t have — serious money, that team may not be the best platform from which to launch one’s career. A low signing offer indicates that team either doesn’t have the organizational or management resources to give the player the best chance, or that the team isn’t willing to sufficiently commit to that player.
As Harvey Dorfman puts it, “A winner takes big risks when he has much to gain. A loser takes big risks when he has little to gain and much to lose.” Winners like David Price and Purkey and Cole are looking for the best odds to have $10 million+ careers, not whether they miss out on a million or two now.
Why do you think major college players have a faster track to The Show? Because they’re older? Hardly. It’s the coaching and the competition. Guys who play for top 30-50 NCAA D-I schools are far better coached than they would be in rookie ball or Class A. (Most pro coaches at that level are ex players with little coaching experience and — most importantly — who aren’t under pressure to win. Therefore, they turn out a low percentage of winners.) Those who play D-I baseball are also facing far more developed and more-mature competition than some kid playing in Missoula Montana. Therefore, 2-3 years of top college ball leaves one better prepared to fight his way to the Big Leagues.
I don’t understand the argument about the 43rd-rounder at all. How much money would the 43rd-rounder have gotten to sign, anyway? (Some of them don’t get an offer at all.) You do realize that there are 40-something round players who cannot play for junior college teams in California and Arizona and Texas and Florida. These guys are signed to fill Rookie League and low Class-A rosters; their chances of making the Major Leagues are little better than their chances of winning the lottery.
As to your comment about guys who sign out of high school and make the Big Leagues at age 20 or 21, two questions: (1) How many of them are there? Subtract the ones from the Caribbean. (2) Now, how many are there?
In 2009, there was seven pitchers that qualified. JA Happ (Northwestern), Jeff Nieman (Rice), and Ricky Romera (CS Fullerton) are the only three that attended college. The other four pitchers are Randy Wells, Rick Porcello, Brett Anderson, and Trevor Cahill all came from high school. Wells was 26, Porcello was 20, Anderson was 21, and Cahill was 21.
Last year four starting pitchers qualified. The four pitchers were Jaime Garcia, Wade Davis, Jonathan Niese, and Brian Matusz. Out of those four, only Matusz attended college while Garcia was from Mexico. Both Wade Davis and Jonathan Niese were from HS. Davis was 24 while Niese was 23.
This year there is also four rookie pitchers that have qualified. Lets throw out Michael Pineda who is from the Dominican Republic and is 21 since he is from the Caribbean and know the major birth certificate scandal. Jeremy Hellickson is 24 while Tyler Chatwood is 21. The only guy that attended college in this year’s rookie pitching class is Dillon Gee who is 25.
Take the numbers fro what they are….HS pitchers are having more success in being starters right now.
Wait a minute.
Your comment was that 20-21 year-olds in the Big Leagues show high school draftees have a better chance of getting to the majors.
Now, your own numbers say two 21 year-olds were MLB starting pitchers in 2009, one in 2010, one this year. That’s an anomaly, not a trend. Moreover, why limit your argument to starters?
The under-21 point was secondary, anyway. The main thrust of your post, and of my response, is the question of turning down big draft bonuses for college. I’d be more interested in your reply to that.
Finally, what did the 43rd rounder have to do with your argument?
Erickson was an elite arm as a freshman at Miami. He was a consensus All-American and has pretty much killed his chances of playing professional baseball with two major arm injuries during his college career.
My main point is that you automatically think that elite high school arms can’t make it to the Majors quickly. They have actually been MORE successful then college players at becoming starting pitchers.
The reason why it is limited to starting pitchers that qualified for MLB awards is the fact there is a ton of guys that get a cup of coffee in the majors before heading back down.
You claim Eric Erickson “actually hurt himself” by going to U Miami instead of signing a pro contract. The basis of the claim is that, after 2 excellent years, he had Tommy John twice; ergo, he should have signed a pro contract instead.
Come on, Brian.
First of all, if he was such an “elite arm”, why was he drafted in the 43rd round? And how much money do you think the Yankees would have lavished on a 43rd-rounder? Maybe $10-15,000? Despite the misconduct in its athletic department, Miami is still a top-rung private University. It costs $50,000 a year to attend Miami. He got all or most of a $100,000 education paid for. Do the math.
Second, what makes you think he wouldn’t have blown his arm in pro ball, just as he did in college? He threw 78 innings in his first year at Miami and 53 in his second, so they hardly over-pitched him.
May I educate you on the “Tommy John” procedure? It has become the most-efficacious arm surgery for throwing athletes. Pitchers actually come back with more velocity than they had before the surgery — 110% recovery is the number bandied about by the surgeons. (I had a pitcher who received Dr. Tim McAdams’ innovative version of the procedure at Stanford. He went into surgery throwing 82-84. A year later, he threw 86-88. Not all that uncommon.)
Eric Erickson had, not one Tommy John, but two. In the highest-percentage fix for pitchers, he had two failures. The most-logical reasons are: (a) The surgeon was inexperienced. Not many orthopedists can do this procedure. (b) His physical makeup or his delivery simply could not support him throwing sustained high-velocity pitches. One would assume Miami used very competent surgeons.
It seems just as likely he would have sustained the injuries for the Yankees as for Miami.
Leaping to conclusions, Brian.
John Uribe did Erickson’s first Tommy John procedure.
Since you “coach” you should know getting picked in the 43rd round isn’t a testament to the talent level of the player but the commitment that the scouts think he has made to the college.
If Erickson would have had the injury in the minor leagues, he gets much better medical treatment then a GA with 40 student athletes waiting to get taken care of.
Every single minor league player says they have better medical care in the minors then in college.
Actually it was three guys in 2009 from High School that were pitching in the league at 21 or 20.
“Guys who play for top 30-50 NCAA D-I schools are far better coached than they would be in rookie ball or Class A”
Fred,
I respectively disagree with you.
Even if there is an inexperienced Single-A coach, they are instructed on how to handle the clubs’ top prospects by limiting their pitch count.
However, coaches at the Division I level have been known to prioritize winning over their player’s best interest for their future.
Take Austin Wood for example. In May of 2009 again Boston College, Augie Garrido allowed his closer to toss 169 pitches in a relief outing. The sickening part? Wood had fired two innings the night before. Augie wanted to win. Granted, the exposure helped Wood’s draft stock but at what cost? Surgery.
The Wood case is not unique. It happens throughout collegiate baseball and something needs to be done to resolve the issue. This past June Sam Stafford fired over 165 pitches over a three day span in the Austin Regional. He turned the Yankees down after being drafted in the second round and will return to Texas this year. Critical mistake in my opinion.
It is also forgotten that Boston College used a closer that pitched 48.1 innings for the entire season for 9.2 innings and over 120 pitches in that game….
Austin,
Your comment is a bit of an extrapolation, isn’t it?
You’re claiming that, because Garrido threw a guy for 169 pitches, college coaches aren’t better teachers than inexperienced minor league coaches. You might as well claim that, because some dogs bite, no one should have a dog for a pet.
Enforcing a pitch count emailed from the front office is hardly coaching.
My point is that college coaches are experienced teachers while the ex-players in the minor leagues are not. Pitch count has nothing to do with that argument.
Look, I’m not going to defend 169 pitches by a closer…..but I do have a question. Is that pitcher still in baseball? If he wasn’t injured, that does say something, doesn’t it?
The difference between a professional coach’s understanding of pitch count, and a fan’s understanding, is this: A coach knows that “pitch count” is relative. A safe pitch count differs from pitcher to pitcher and from one circumstance to another. For instance, it may be perfectly safe for a mature pitcher with the right frame and shoulder joint makeup and pitch mechanic to throw 130+ pitches in a late-season game. (Once or twice, not every game — and certainly not back-to-back games.) On the other hand, it may be dangerous for a less-mature pitcher to throw 100 pitches in February.
Let me ask you a question: Do you think the Nationals threw Strassburg too many innings before he blew his arm out? (I don’t. I also think Strassburg’s delivery mechanics at that velocity will cause more injuries, and very possibly a premature retirement.)
Good discussion, you & Brian both.
Fred,
I understand where you are coming from with regards to varying pitch counts but there isn’t denying that coaches like Garrido and Wayne Graham at Rice have historically held their own success as a priority over the long-term viability of their pitchers’ arms.
I don’t think we’re going to agree on this but I just don’t think instruction at the college level is that far ahead of the coaching that you find in Single-A or Rookie leagues. I still think it is critical that the best interest of the pitcher is maintained. If that is in college, perfect. There are coaches out there that respect their student-athletes’ arms.
As for Strasburg, his mechanics had a lot to do with his injury, but he had three years of college ball and a few stints with the Collegiate National team and the Olympic to get that resolved, didn’t he?
Point is, ultimately we are debating apples and oranges. Injuries happen, even freak injuries like what happened to Georgia OF Johnathan Taylor. With that being said, if the money is right for a young prospect, make that leap to the big leagues because you don’t know what the future holds. With a lot of clubs’ offering to pay for schooling, it isn’t necessarily a bad move, even if baseball doesn’t work out in the long-term.
Austin,
I’ve coached for over 3 decades. Half of that has been
in nationally-competitive junior college programs and college summer ball.
I’ve always placed players (finding them 4-year scholarships), so I’m in
fairly consistent contact with programs at all 4-year levels (NCAA D-I, D-II,
D-III NAIA).
Based on that experience, I think your generalities about
Garrido — and, now, Wayne Graham — are just that. They’re generalities.
I have some personal knowledge of Rice; I can tell you their ethical
standards are among the most respected in college baseball. If these guys abuse pitchers so badly, who do top pitchers sign with them?
Here’s why I know major college coaching is far superior to
that in the lower minors:
1. I’ve had players return from playing pro ball every
year who express amazement at the poor quality of instruction below the AA and
AAA levels. These, by the way, are guys who’ve started in the Major
Leagues and AAA baseball up to and including this year. In general, an
MLB franchise will have one or two roving guys (a pitching coach and a hitting
coach) who are pretty good. But stopping by every few weeks really
doesn’t allow one to teach effectively. Great coaching requires intense
effort. EVERY day.
2. People coming straight out pro ball, who try to go
directly into college coaching, fail. They have no coaching experience,
so they don’t know how to instruct or motivate others to succeed.
Moreover, they generally don’t want to work hard.
You’ll probably raise Tony Gwynn as a counter argument.
Let’s look at San Diego
State. Because he’s
Tony Gwynn, players flock to him. The Aztecs have had top-25 recruiting
classes almost every year. But he can’t win with all that talent.
He’s never won the Mountain West, which is certainly not one of the top
baseball conferences in the country. He has incredible turnover because
he seems to believe the way to win is “like they do it in pro ball”,
just cycle through players until enough winners finally come along. Well,
they never do. I know people who’ve played for Gwynn. They all tell
the same story: He’s a very nice guy, but they didn’t learn a thing from him.
Clearly, Gwynn was a great hitter. Clearly, he knows how to hit.
But doing it and teaching it are completely different skills.
3. Major League Baseball has always put its money in
“cattle call” development. They draft 1,600 guys a year and
sign another 300 free agents. They waste the great majority of that
talent because they don’t invest in quality, experienced coaching. Think
of the turnover. What other major sport goes through so many prospects to
get the players who can compete at the top level? And they’re committed
only to the prospects who they’ve spent the most money on. I personally
know the circumstances of two teams in last year’s Pioneer League which say it
all. On one team, they made a DH out of their best catcher because two
catchers who couldn’t perform (one from South
Korea, the other from Cuba) had received bonuses above
$90,000. What other sport benches the players who are performing best?
Another team locked its batting cages. Only certain players were
allowed to take extra batting practice on their own — all of them high-bonus
guys. So much of Major League Baseball is about the politics rather than
performance. “Player development” is more about covering some
player development director’ s a**, rather than developing talent. In
college ball, there’s a set number of players — and FAR less turnover than in
the minors. College coaches must win with what they have.
Therefore, developing talent is more important to them. They have
the experience to do that. Minor league coaches don’t. That’s why
their salaries are so much greater.
Strasburg’s arm mechanics probably can’t be changed.
It started long before Gwynn got him. And Team USA or the
Olympic team aren’t in the business of changing a player they only have for a
couple of months. By the time a guy is in his 20s, Austin, it’s very nearly impossible to
drastically change his basic delivery. You’d be amazed, for instance, at
the number of guys who blow out their arms while trying to simply convert to
submarine deliveries (which you’d think would be the most natural). You
can change where a guy strides and how he distributes his weight, etc.
But radically changing what happens between his shoulder and his elbow and
wrist is difficult to impossible.
Let me suggest you talk to some pro signees about the MLB
“money for college”. It usually is a very limited amount over a
short period of time — FAR less than the actual cost of going to school.
Nice
Here is an article on both Austin Wood and Mike Belfiore and the injury issues that they have had throughout the minor leagues.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/college_sports/longhorns/article/Former-UT-pitcher-says-moment-worth-the-pain-1416327.php#page-1
Here is an article on both Austin Wood and Mike Belfiore and the injury issues that they have had throughout the minor leagues.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/college_sports/longhorns/article/Former-UT-pitcher-says-moment-worth-the-pain-1416327.php#page-1
Did you read the article?
Wood has nothing but praise for Garrido — 2 years after the writer and you say Garrido ruined his career.
You and the San Antonio writer claim Wood has been ruined by the 2009 game and that has destroyed his pro career. Being in AA ball 2 years after signing is hardly failure. For the record, he has a 3.09 ERA in 55 innings this year. Hardly a disaster. You may as well say the 2009 game is responsible for his 5.09 ERA in the last 10 games (I think it’s because he walked as many as he struck out).
You guys also claim Mike Belfiore was ruined pitching for Boston College in that game. His minor league stats would beg to differ….
In 2009, he had a 2.17 ERA and struck out 55 in 58 innings
In 2010, he had a 3.99 ERA and struck out 105 in 125 innings.
Can’t imagine how a guy with a bum arm could put up those power numbers, can you?
The argument that DeCherry was abused because he threw 5.67 innings in that 2009 game escapes me. He threw 57 innings in 2009 and 27 in 2010. This year, he pitched 1 inning with an 18.00 ERA.
Radical as it may seem, is it just POSSIBLE that his declining numbers were because he didn’t pitch well?
Gimme a break, guys.
That’s not the point we are making. Your entire point of contention was the college coaches have the best interest of their student-athletes in mind when that simply isn’t true. A lot has changed with professional baseball in recent years, coaching has greatly improved in the lower levels in comparison to the college game and the last four decades in the professional ranks.
College coaches are graded on one thing only….Wins….if your not doing that, the school will get rid of you.
The minor league coaches care about developing their players for the MLB club.
Brian, are you really serious?
You make a substantial part of your living by writing about college baseball, and that’s your opinion of college coaches?
Let’s go back 5 years or more. Take any year before 2006 (to allow for maturation). Now compare the percentage of minor-league rosters who played more than a year in the Big Leagues to the number of players on top-30 college teams’ rosters who played more than a year in the Big Leagues.
Better yet, ask the Players Association to facilitate a questionnaire among MLB players who came through college baseball. Ask them whether they received better coaching in college ball, or in the low minors.
For that matter, compare the number of NCAA D-I coaches to minor-league coaches. How many years have the college coaches been on the job? How many years have the minor-league coaches been on the job. College coaching is a LOT more stable.
Let me offer you the same challenge I just offered Austin: Show us the facts to support your opinion.
Lets go with 2011 All-Stars since those numbers are easier to get.
2011 AL All-Star Game Starters
C Alex Avila (5th round pick out of Alabama in 2008)
1B Alex Gonzalez (1st overall pick out of HS in 2000)
2B Robinson Cano (Never attended college/HS Free Agent)
SS Derek Jeter (6th overall pick by the Yankees in 1992 out of HS)
3B Alex Rodriguez (1st overall pick by the Mariners in 1993 out of HS)
OF Jose Bautista (20th round pick out of HS by the Pirates)
OF Curtis Granderson (3rd round pick by the Tigers out of Illinois-Chicago)
OF Josh Hamilton (1st overall selection by Tampa out of HS)
DH David Ortiz (HS free agent)
SP Jered Weaver (12th overall selection by Angels from LBSU in 2004)
2011 NL All-Star Game Starters
C Brian McCann (2nd round pick by Atlanta Braves in 2002 out of HS)
1B Prince Fielder (1st round pick by Brewers in 2002 out of HS)
2B Rickie Weeks (2nd overall pick by Brewers in 2003 out of Southern U)
SS Jose Reyes (Free Agent)
3B Placido Polanco (19th round selection by Tigers out of HS)
OF Lance Berkman (1st round pick by Astros out of Rice)
OF Ryan Braun (5th overall pick by Brewers out of Miami (FL))
OF Matt Kemp (6th round pick by Dodgers out of HS)
SP Roy Halladay (17th overall pick by Blue Jays out of HS)
Just looking at the starters in the game…Nine players were drafted out of HS and signed. Six players went through college. Ortiz, Cano, and Reyes all were part of the Dominican system.
Here are the AL Pitchers from the 2011 All-Star Game
Josh Beckett (2nd overall pick by the Marlins out of HS)
Aaron Crow (12th overall pick out of Missouri/Independent Baseball by the Royals)
Gio Gonzalez (1st round pick by the White Sox out of HS)
Felix Hernandez (free agent signee out of Venezuela)
Brandon League (2nd round pick by the Blue Jays out of HS)
Jon Lester (2nd round pick out of HS by the Red Sox)
Alexi Ogando (Free agent in 2002)
Chris Perez (First round pick out of Miami (FL))
Michael Pineda (Free Agent)
David Price (1st overall pick in 2007 out of Vanderbilt)
Mariano Rivera (Free Agent)
David Robertson (17th round selection out of Alabama)
Ricky Romero (6th overall pick out of Cal State Fullerton)
CC Sabathia (20th overall pick out of HS)
James Shields (16th round pick out of HS)
Jose Valverde (Free Agent)
Justin Verlander (2nd overall pick out of Old Dominion)
Jordan Walden (12th round pick out of Grayson County College)
Jered Weaver (12th overall pick out of LBSU)
CJ Wilson (5th round pick out of Loyola Marymount)
NL Pitchers
Heath Bell (69th round pick in 1997 out of Santiago Canyon College)
Matt Cain (25th overall pick out of HS)Tyler Clippard (9th round pick out of HS)
Kevin Correja (4th round pick out of Cal Poly)
Roy Halladay (17th overall pick out of HS)
Cole Hamels (17th overall pick out of HS)
Joel Hanrahan (57th overall pick out of HS)
Jair Jurrjens (Free agent)
Clayton Kershaw (7th overall pick out of HS)
Craig Kimbrel (3rd round pick out of Wallace State)
Cliff Lee (4th round pick out of Arkansas)
Tim Lincecum (1st round pick out of Washington)
Jonny Venters (30th round pick out of HS)
Ryan Vogelsong (5th round pick out of Kutztown)
Brian Wilson (24th round pick out of LSU)
As these stats state…16 pitchers came out of the college system, 13 out of HS, and six were free agents. Looks inconclusive to me….
Here are the AL Pitchers from the 2011 All-Star Game
Josh Beckett (2nd overall pick by the Marlins out of HS)
Aaron Crow (12th overall pick out of Missouri/Independent Baseball by the Royals)
Gio Gonzalez (1st round pick by the White Sox out of HS)
Felix Hernandez (free agent signee out of Venezuela)
Brandon League (2nd round pick by the Blue Jays out of HS)
Jon Lester (2nd round pick out of HS by the Red Sox)
Alexi Ogando (Free agent in 2002)
Chris Perez (First round pick out of Miami (FL))
Michael Pineda (Free Agent)
David Price (1st overall pick in 2007 out of Vanderbilt)
Mariano Rivera (Free Agent)
David Robertson (17th round selection out of Alabama)
Ricky Romero (6th overall pick out of Cal State Fullerton)
CC Sabathia (20th overall pick out of HS)
James Shields (16th round pick out of HS)
Jose Valverde (Free Agent)
Justin Verlander (2nd overall pick out of Old Dominion)
Jordan Walden (12th round pick out of Grayson County College)
Jered Weaver (12th overall pick out of LBSU)
CJ Wilson (5th round pick out of Loyola Marymount)
NL Pitchers
Heath Bell (69th round pick in 1997 out of Santiago Canyon College)
Matt Cain (25th overall pick out of HS)Tyler Clippard (9th round pick out of HS)
Kevin Correja (4th round pick out of Cal Poly)
Roy Halladay (17th overall pick out of HS)
Cole Hamels (17th overall pick out of HS)
Joel Hanrahan (57th overall pick out of HS)
Jair Jurrjens (Free agent)
Clayton Kershaw (7th overall pick out of HS)
Craig Kimbrel (3rd round pick out of Wallace State)
Cliff Lee (4th round pick out of Arkansas)
Tim Lincecum (1st round pick out of Washington)
Jonny Venters (30th round pick out of HS)
Ryan Vogelsong (5th round pick out of Kutztown)
Brian Wilson (24th round pick out of LSU)
As these stats state…16 pitchers came out of the college system, 13 out of HS, and six were free agents. Looks inconclusive to me….
Here are the AL Pitchers from the 2011 All-Star Game
Josh Beckett (2nd overall pick by the Marlins out of HS)
Aaron Crow (12th overall pick out of Missouri/Independent Baseball by the Royals)
Gio Gonzalez (1st round pick by the White Sox out of HS)
Felix Hernandez (free agent signee out of Venezuela)
Brandon League (2nd round pick by the Blue Jays out of HS)
Jon Lester (2nd round pick out of HS by the Red Sox)
Alexi Ogando (Free agent in 2002)
Chris Perez (First round pick out of Miami (FL))
Michael Pineda (Free Agent)
David Price (1st overall pick in 2007 out of Vanderbilt)
Mariano Rivera (Free Agent)
David Robertson (17th round selection out of Alabama)
Ricky Romero (6th overall pick out of Cal State Fullerton)
CC Sabathia (20th overall pick out of HS)
James Shields (16th round pick out of HS)
Jose Valverde (Free Agent)
Justin Verlander (2nd overall pick out of Old Dominion)
Jordan Walden (12th round pick out of Grayson County College)
Jered Weaver (12th overall pick out of LBSU)
CJ Wilson (5th round pick out of Loyola Marymount)
NL Pitchers
Heath Bell (69th round pick in 1997 out of Santiago Canyon College)
Matt Cain (25th overall pick out of HS)Tyler Clippard (9th round pick out of HS)
Kevin Correja (4th round pick out of Cal Poly)
Roy Halladay (17th overall pick out of HS)
Cole Hamels (17th overall pick out of HS)
Joel Hanrahan (57th overall pick out of HS)
Jair Jurrjens (Free agent)
Clayton Kershaw (7th overall pick out of HS)
Craig Kimbrel (3rd round pick out of Wallace State)
Cliff Lee (4th round pick out of Arkansas)
Tim Lincecum (1st round pick out of Washington)
Jonny Venters (30th round pick out of HS)
Ryan Vogelsong (5th round pick out of Kutztown)
Brian Wilson (24th round pick out of LSU)
As these stats state…16 pitchers came out of the college system, 13 out of HS, and six were free agents. Looks inconclusive to me….
It’s a flippant comment, Brian. But you didn’t answer the question.
The question was, in a given season 5 years ago or more, how many compare the number of MLB players from college to those who went to the minors without playing college. The purpose is to get you to compare the success of a large number of players in a given season. That comparison will show the College players have a higher success rate.
All-stars is hardly indicative. You have 4 first picks among your 9 position players who didn’t play college ball. How quickly hall-of-fame talent like Jeter and Rodriguez and maybe Hamilton rose through the minors says nothing about the quality of instruction in the minors vs. college ball. You know that. You’re giving a Tea Party answer to a serious question.
Austin, the original point of Brian’s post was that he believed a high draft choice is better off signing than going to college. This discussion didn’t get into college coaches until I raised the point that college players are better coached, then you countered that college coaches abuse their pitchers. I countered that by going to the facts about the players referred to in the San Antonio newspaper article you and Brian latched onto. Those facts indicate the players, who you guys claim had their careers ruined by being over-pitched in one game, actually are doing just fine.
It’s easy to state factually-unsupported opinions, Austin. The facts haven’t supported your arguments.
Got any facts, personal experiences to support your contention that coaching has improved in the low minors? I sure haven’t seen it. In what way are you involved with baseball? (Don’t mean the question as a comeuppance, but I am interested in what you base that claim on.)
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